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Barry Walker's avatar

John

I agree with your premise.

Suggest a year might be better for public service.

First thing that comes to mind is a National Fire Fighting Service in addition to military service.

I would also tie the Public Service to a requirement for citizenship somehow.

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John Ivison's avatar

Fire service is an excellent idea, as is tying to some kind of commitment. Anyone else got thoughts on how we can add responsibilities to the privilege of citizenship?

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Barry Walker's avatar

Ocourse I meant to say Wild Fires

Tree planting is another area that would suit for Public Service

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Ray's avatar

The companies that plant trees probably won’t appreciate the competition from the government!

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Freedom To Offend's avatar

Increasing the concentration of Indians in Brampton/Surrey or Chinese in Markham help assimilation? Maybe we need to broaden the intake and make living in Winnipeg a condition. But most of these students wouldn’t come without the work allotment and most work cash jobs and are exploited anyway. The system is broken. But it’s unfair to change the rules after they arrive. We cannot let the blind greed of pubic institutions drive this. There are better ways but closing the door isn’t the solution.

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Tom Eagles's avatar

I absolutely agree with this and think it would be a home run policy idea. I've believed in it since I was a teenager and spent two summers and time after post-sec graduation in Canada's Naval Reserves. It was not only consistent with my sense of patriotism that I did it, but also to continue a family tradition and put myself in a position where I could speak about related topics from experience and personal and temporal investment, not just opinion-of-the-day.

In fact, I'd take the idea a few steps further: make (certain, useful) post-secondary programs free IF you serve in one of Canada's military branches as either a reserve or an ROTP candidate, with at least three summers committed and one year post graduation (unless you're a medical student or law student; then your commitment may be to practice your profession in a remote region for a certain duration [two to five years, depending on education cost?] or serve in the military post grad for the same -- or a fraction of the same -- duration. Something like that.

I'm not talking about tree planting and summer camps for kids; I'm talking about young adults learning adult skills for an adult world. Our country has sadly become soft and we need a concerted course correction in so many segments of Canadian (American? UK? Aussie?) society.

If only there was a politician with the balls to suggest such a policy. I know one in the US who would, but he dropped out of the race to support Trump.

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John Ivison's avatar

Excellent ideas Tom. I can feel another column coming on....

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Ray's avatar

As someone who served for a short time in the Army Reserve, I learned to not be a fan of conscription. It may be necessary in a war of national survival, but I really don’t want to serve with or lead troops who are not self motivated, don’t want to be there and are poorly trained.

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John Ivison's avatar

I think that the Forces would not be fans of any move toward national service, even though they claim their biggest problem is recruitment!

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Ray's avatar

Especially since they have enough trouble now finding the instructors and other resources they need to run courses for the recruits that they manage to get now!

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John Ivison's avatar

That's a column coming soon - a retired Forces member spilled the beans on the problems the army has to train, house and equip its current force, never mind new members. That's why we only took in 4,000 new soldiers, sailors and airmen last years, despite being 16,000 short and receiving around 80,000 applications.

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Tom Eagles's avatar

Looking forward to that column. The National Post?

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Tom Eagles's avatar

Our army, navy, and air force reserves are a form of national service that could be better utilized.

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Tom Eagles's avatar

Ray, as someone who also served in the reserves, I can attest to the poor training that most would have for the first summer of service. Continual (one evening per week) part-time service during the school year (uni or college) and then every summer of their education cohort would result in a well-trained standing militia that would be capable of being rapidly trained for deployment (disasters, wars) when needed. Even a rocket can't go from zero-to-sixty in zero seconds.

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Glenn Toddun's avatar

Six months out of someone’s life is not going to change someone’s life perspective. This is wishful thinking.

If you want someone to believe in a nation, that nation has to be there for them all the time. From birth to death.

Right now, there is a definite sense that if you don’t have parent that can support you, that it’s sink or swim out there. And there’s plenty of evidence that it’s not our government that are going to help you swim if you sink. Food bank usage is at an all time high. Even marginal housing is becoming unaffordable. Disability support and means testing are humiliating.

The contract between nation and citizen is breaking and it’s no wonder there’s no national mission. There’s no reciprocity especially not from Conservative governments.

It seems their entire mission is to clear the way for the business community to make people work more hours and pay them less money all the while profiting from our natural resources without restraint or paying any of the profit back into community. Liberals do this too, but try to make you think they don’t.

A country that nurtured and protected our youth from exploitation like a parent would engender much more love for a motherland than one that forced them into labour for six months.

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John Ivison's avatar

So what are the policy implications of a more nurturing relationship?

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Glenn Toddun's avatar

For a start our governments could create policy that make Real Estate Investment Trusts untenable, as well housing as an investment (on top of the house you reside) generally. We need more houses on the market, at lower prices, available to renters

And if we can’t do that, we need renters make up the majority of these corporate boards and/or shareholders. If renters have a sense from the top down that they have a right to have input in their housing, it would go a long way to establishing trust in government and country.

There are a lot more.

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Tom Eagles's avatar

We need need need... and those damned capitalists - they don't give give give. Hey, I know what: let's have five-year plans and nationalize everything. That should work!

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Glenn Toddun's avatar

Conservatives, always on about stability and constancy, yet run for the hills any one talks about planning for the next five years.

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Tom Eagles's avatar

LoL. Yes, it's much less hypocritical to drone on about the evils of profit-obsessed capitalists while accepting their donations to your beer-and-potato-chip fund.

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Glenn Toddun's avatar

I didn’t say anything about the evils of capitalism. I suggested some ways that a government/nation could engender more support from the populace. Happy to talk about that if you like. What do you think our governments could do to create more patriotism.

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Glenn Toddun's avatar

We could also have a nationalized grocery chain that focussed on Canadian farmers and food producers. This would not only increase our food security in an unstable global environment, it would return profits to regions that faced production difficulties like flooding or fires.

Not having to worry about profit would allow purchasers to select healthier food source. Our farmers could grow things other than corn, soy or wheat for the global market. Cycling Canadian cash back into rural communities would boost their viability and slow the emptying out of our small towns.

It would also shift consumption patterns to more seasonal eating as the availability of offerings waxed and waned throughout the year.

The last benefit would be a check on prices in the profit-based chains, having lower prices in the market would put downward pressure on prices.

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John Ivison's avatar

I can't agree with nationalizing anything and removing the price incentive. I believe markets that are properly regulated are the most efficient mechanism and trying to impose outcomes comes with unintended consequences. Create equality of opportunity and let the markets work. The problem in Canada's grocery industry is not enough competition, which creates the potential for abuse. That's why the government has all but begged big American retailers to enter the market. The problem is they see no profit incentive for doing so.

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Glenn Toddun's avatar

The LCBO in Ontario does quite a good job, I don’t know what the unintended consequence of that operation. I don’t know why you need to be a fundamentalist about this, we live with all sorts of planned economies from our military to Costco who operates at such scale that they set rather than respond to prices of their suppliers.

The strict adherence to free markets has left a lot of youth rightly feeling abandoned by their country. They’re in a system where they can’t afford housing and if they can, paying a large part of their debt into the financial system with 25yr mortgages. The free market passed on a lot of good-paying jobs to cheaper job markets. This system is not working for them.

If you add on 6 months of forced labour, they might acquire some skills along the way. But one thing they won’t love is the country that took away their choice.

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John Ivison's avatar

I don't think I'm a fundamentalist. I think I'm a pragmatist. Long experience suggests to me that well-regulated markets are the most efficient way to promote prosperity. As for the LCBO - it's a government monopoly in a sector the government doesn't need to be in. Prices are higher and the number of outlets are lower than in private markets like Alberta. It's a ridiculous, antiquated organization that only exists because it hands over a massive dividend to its shareholder every year. It should have been privatized decades ago.

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Jason's avatar

I want to agree with your over-arching point but one of my top picks for a national mission would be along egalitarian lines, that is, ending poverty and compressing the lower income bands as much as possible. I can see how it difficult it would be to sell this to a significant part of the citizenry (despite it obviously being a good candidate). It does have the virtue though of being ambitious and having whole of society reach (everyone can either benefit or contribute).

I do think we have to think along these lines rather than just some period of service for young people.

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John Ivison's avatar

I would argue the Liberal government has been attempting to do that. It can be faulted for many things but the Child benefit, the increased Canada Workers benefit and the enriched CPP were all designed to provide a social safety net to catch people in poverty. Recent inflation notwithstanding, it has been quite effective. Are you suggesting going further - a universal basic income, for example, or something quite different?

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Jason's avatar

I appreciate you highlighting what I agree were positive policy developments but yes, I’d like to go further based on these sorts of questions: Does everyone have at least a simple, clean, quiet, healthy, safe and functional place to live? Does everyone meet a standard of minimum healthy nourishment? Is everyone getting the medicine and other treatments that are the norm (including dental care)? Does everyone have enough income that they feel like they’re respected by and belong to society? We know from reports about housing, food banks and the state of the medical system and nursing homes that there is plenty of room for improvement.

I’m not sure about a UBI based on a lack of consensus from experts but I think a BID (basic income for the disabled) or what effectively acts as one is essential.

One could pair this mission with one to create a healthier, more innovative economy sort of along Swedish lines. They’re complementary and perhaps that would engender more buy in.

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Tom Eagles's avatar

"Simple, clean, quiet, healthy, and safe" by whose criteria? And whose standards? Criteria like these are always subjective and biased in favour of ideology. There are grave dangers to putting your thumb on the scale. Having a basic safety net as we've had since before I was born (I'm 61) and a liberal application of market solutions to social issues is how I'd solve the problems you're listing. As for gluing together the margins of our society, I'd look at a national program of education-for-service, where engaging in public service results in taxpayers providing free post-secondary education for in-demand programs - that, to me, is a fully justifiable use of taxpayer dollars.

That would mean no more OSAP (or similar) funding of "Womyn's Studies" and other such ridiculous and useless courses in uni and college. But it would instead man full funding for engineering, medicine, IT, and particularly the trades and other skills that are in high demand today. If you want to be a teacher or social worker, that could be partially funded depending on local needs.

But the underwater basket-weaving DEI courses have to be euthanized or self-funded for those who want to undergo such indoctrination. No more free ride where those who do the paying get pissed on instead of thanked.

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Barbara's avatar

Agree. The History curricula in the various provinces need a root and branch overhaul, given that, currently, it's all about colonialism and the multitude of sins supposedly perpetrated against victim groups. What young preson would feel pride in country when brainwashed to believe Canada is an illegitimate state built on stolen land?

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thomas's avatar

The neoliberal productivity-cult that currently occupies where our culture should be is the actual culprit. Not a politician making people feel bad about being settler colonialists and boorish ones at that. I’m sure once the fumes of this national service idea finally reach the nose of some tory empty suit and get through its haphazard implementation, with traditional Canadian corruption, we’ll thereafter be treated to the “Where did National Service go Wrong?” and “Sexual assaults scandal rocks National Service” articles. As Marx described Henry George’s land value tax as “the capitalist’s last ditch”, such feelings surmise my thoughts on such a national service. It didn’t seem to move the needle when Hilary Clinton threw her support behind it.

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Freedom To Offend's avatar

Diversity in itself is just difference. Multiculturalism is the same, with the implicit notion that no matter what all cultures are equal. No they are not.

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Dave's avatar

Thank you for this essay! I listened to the same interview and believe that 6 months of service is insufficient: for most people, this is just enough time to get past the change of pace/location and learn the job requirements. 18 months of paid public service of some sort would allow time to see the benefit of the service. To be completed anytime before entering the work force or graduate studies.

Curious why you wrote this here and not for NP; reaching out to a wider audience?

Call Me Back is solid gold!

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Werner Patels's avatar

All good points, and the way things are now, there is absolutely zero willingness in Canada now to make sacrifices in the name of Ottawa.

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Freedom To Offend's avatar

Funny how so many homosexual refugee claimants discover they were bisexual after all. Just saying.

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Freedom To Offend's avatar

Great piece. I am biased. I earn my living teaching internationals. (https://shorturl.at/7Po8E). My $700/month on Substack is not paying for the kitchen renovation my wife treasures. But I would say that let’s be honest. Except for the super rich, 95% of certificate students are using the student visa for immigration purposes. What to do? First cut off the private colleges and the colleges in general, raise the IELTS standard to 7 and do randomized tests here to deal with fraud, reform curriculum to make it more valuable and align incoming skill sets with needs. If we didn’t give out work visas with student visas we would lose most of them. But there are far too many and adding huge numbers at the bottom end of job market just hurts labour, housing markets and swamps medical resources. We need immigrants but not so many. And is the Punjab the only region in the world? Does increasing

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ABossy's avatar

Such a timely article during a period of high immigration and its challenges. What IS holding us together? Remember the Kelly Leith fiasco back in 2016? If I remember correctly, she strongly suggested that (among other things), immigrants should be screened on whether or not they shared “Canadian values”. Many debates ensued, asking “So then, what ARE Canadian values exactly?” How discouraging to learn (according to talking heads and influencers) that apparently there is no such thing, and Leitch was mocked again and again. The one dominant Canadian narrative that did emerge however, was one of national self-loathing. Not one blogger, call-in, journalist or other, could say a single good thing about this country. I sincerely agree with you, we desperately need a national purpose, un raison d’être. A Canadian aspiration to strive for.

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John Ivison's avatar

It's not realistic to think that anyone coming to Canada abandons all their previous loyalties and allegiances. I immigrated for good when I was 32 and I can't not be Scottish. But new arrivals have to not only adapt but conform and embrace their new homeland. My rite of passage included 6am hockey practises and Canadian dentistry! Anyone can do it.

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ABossy's avatar

Hockey for sure, haha! But I’m still discouraged that no one at the time could identify what exactly is a Canadian “value”, or articulate what it is to be a Canadian.

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Andrew Gorman's avatar

It’s a great point, but here’s the fly in the ointment.

This common mission has to be something we have in common. Picking something I think is important and calling it our coming mission won’t work.

Right now, too many of our intellectual leaders have ideas they want as our common mission…. but far too many of us actually dislike their idea and oppose them. So far, berating us to like their ideas isn’t working.

They’ve either got to figure a new ways to convince us or find new ideas. Possibly learn to like our ideas.

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John Ivison's avatar

There must be some ideas that all Canadians can get behind - a new national service that stops our cities being burnt to the ground; reverence for the sacrifices made in both world wars; admiration for the way every nationality on earth has arrived and learned to live in peace alongside one another (until very recently at least). For all its faults, it's where I have made my home (until very recently at least) and had four kids.

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Andrew Gorman's avatar

Oh I agree. I’m not against your idea at all.

I’m just not all that optimistic about how we’ll fare picking that common goal right now.

But we do need one.

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Barry Walker's avatar

Spent 31yrs in our military 27 Reg F & 4 in Reserves. In the 90s we had something called YETP= Youth Employment Training Program. Young people could choose a trade in the CF and get 1 yr of training that could lead to employment outside the service. They could extend for a 2nd of serving within the service at what they trained in with the possibility of entering the Regular Force after their 2yrs. It was reasonably successful with something like 2 out 10 seeking careers within CF. On average about 1 out of 10 wouldn't complete their year for a variety of reasons. Program ended in early 90s with the famous Paul Martin.budget to get our deficit under control. The program documents will be gathering dust somewhere in archives & could be adapted for a national service program today in any area , military, health care, building trades, firefighting etc.

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John Ivison's avatar

Great column fodder, Barry. Will look into that. This is exactly what I hoped might come from this platform - a real exchange of ideas. That is before my time covering Canadian politics, so that means before the time of anyone currently practising it!

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Barry Walker's avatar

Hey I'm only 63 but did join when I was 18. Later in my career I would come across the odd personnel file of soldiers who joined under YTEP & had long distinguished careers

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John Ivison's avatar

Yep. Harper made a point of it. It would make a change from apologizing for mistakes made long before any of us were born, while ignoring those that are being made now.

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